gaudior: (be the change)
[personal profile] gaudior
So, on Friday, I made a post about a thought I'd had about cultural appropriation*. Unfortunately, I got it all down really quickly and ran out the door, so it came out sort of half-baked. (And then I went down to see my wife and my friends for the weekend (yay!), and spent no time online to fix it). And people came and made interesting comments on it, so I don't want to delete that entry, or massively revise it, because then their thoughtful and interesting comments won't make any sense. On the other hand, I think the idea was interesting, and I want to work on it more. So I'm going to leave the original entry there (and respond to the comments presently), and post the revised version here. Cuz it's my lj, and I can re-post if I want to.
****************************************************************************


So, sparked by [livejournal.com profile] coffeeandink's useful post on last year's WisCon panel, I've had a thought. I haven't, I'm afraid, read enough to know whether anyone else has had this thought, but I think it's a good one.

Last year, I wrote a post on cultural appropriation trying to answer the question that many White people have upon first hearing the concept-- "Why is this such a big deal?" But what I'm thinking about now is: why, for White people, is it so hard to understand that it is a big deal? A lot of people give the answer of "entitlement," and that may well be true, but I think it's only a partial answer-- and that there are more interesting cultural reasons behind it.

So: in 1015, Islamic Golden Age philosopher and scientist Ibn al-Haytham wrote the book Optics. This was the first text I know of to use what we now think of as the "Scientific Method"-- a way of understanding the universe through observation, hypothesis, and experimentation. Over the next few centuries, the idea spread, and in 1620, Sir Francis Bacon wrote the Novum Organum, followed by Renes Descartes' A Discourse on the Method in 1637. Together, these two books laid out the scientific method for Europeans in clear, precise language. It became one of the many ideas of the European Enlightenment, which went on to become so a part of American culture that we now have difficulty distinguishing Enlightenment ideas from plain common sense.

Now, the scientific method-- the idea that anything can be learned by observing it, playing with it, and thinking about it-- is an interesting concept. But it is not a universal. Most traditional religions-- including most European ones-- have the idea that some things are meant to be mysteries. Christianity has plenty of these-- transubstantiation, the Trinity, etc. In fact, the only religion I can think of with anything approaching empiricism is Buddhism, where the Buddha tells his followers to investigate everything for themselves, through meditation and practice. That's a very foreign concept for most faiths. The idea that everyone should be able to know everything, all the time, is not only not universal, it's not even universal to Westerners. Nor is it just a Western idea-- it's a modern one, and everyone lives in the twenty-first century.

So for modern Americans, raised in a country steeped in the offshoots of the 17th century, the idea seems like a matter of course. I was raised to believe that I should approach everything with questions-- to never accept what I was told, but to try to find it out for myself. I was taught that the best thing I could do was to gather all the evidence I could, to consider it, to throw out whatever didn't fit-- all in the belief that, by so doing, I could eventually figure out The Truth of Everything.

Now, the interesting thing about that (as [livejournal.com profile] rushthatspeaks pointed out this weekend, thank you, belove), is that it's not true. Not just that I could eventually figure everything out, but that I don't believe anything should be off-limits. Because there are things that Americans don't believe we should know-- that are "too much information." A whole lot of biological functions, social interactions, etc-- we've decided that these are not useful in our quest to find things out, and we try not to learn them. They may or may not actually be useful, but we believe that they aren't, on a level so deep it feels like instinct.

And that's the main point, really-- that it's not that we're really trying to find out everything in the world, but that we believe we are. It is, oddly enough, a devoutly religious belief of secular, intellectual Americans, that everything should be questioned, considered, and judged with logic.** And that, I think, is why we become so outraged by the idea that cultural appropriation is a problem. For people raised like me, who are secular because no religion can satisfy our logic, saying "there are some things you do not have the right to write about" is not just setting limits-- it becomes a threat to our ability to make sense of the universe. We believe, deep down, that we need to have the freedom to taste everything, think about everything, understand everything, work with everything (and writing fiction about something is a major way of trying to make sense of it). Otherwise, we'll fail in our lifelong quest: to integrate all knowledge so that we can somehow find answers that help us to live meaningful lives.

So the problem here is not that exactly that White, upper-middle-class Americans are trying to own the entire world (as it often seems to be portrayed), or that people from other cultures are being ridiculously touchy in saying that we can't look at and use aspects of their cultures (as it also often seems to be portrayed). The problem as I see it is that intellectual (which often, though not always, = upper-middle-class) White Americans feel that it is our right to investigate ideas in order to fit them into our theories, and that we have a sacred obligation to do so-- where people from other cultures feel that those particular ideas are mysteries, and are meant to be. It basically comes down to: my culture's beliefs and obligations conflict with other cultures'. And that, while it's very disturbing, is the core conflict at the root of any attempt at true multiculturalism-- so any ways of dealing with that conflict could be applied here just as well.

However, three partial solutions specific to this form of the conflict leap to mind. The first is to acknowledge that our feeling that "people are being unreasonable to complain about cultural appropriation" is, in fact, a feeling strongly based in our culture. It is not an entirely rational feeling, no matter how much we want to think it is-- it is based on assumptions about the world which are native to our culture, not universal. This takes us out into the really scary place, where "multiculturalism" becomes not just about eating different spices, but about really questioning the basis of why we hold things to be self-evident. Which is challenging, and hard to do-- but which will, I think, very much help in this debate.

The second thing is to be aware of a major difference in viewpoint, which is: while most White people see ourselves as borrowing ideas, I think many people of other cultures see us as taking them. They point out that it is deeply unfair that a White, upper-middle-class person can write about/sing about/sell something from another culture and profit enormously from it, while someone from the culture that s/he's using probably couldn't-- especially since said White, upper-middle-class person's misunderstandings of the context are likely to come through in the finished product, and so spread misinformation about the original culture. This, honestly, seems like more of a problem for informed consumers to work on than writers-- it is, for example, up to the readers to buy more books written by people of different cultures, so that there can be more of a market for them. White American writers can help by doing their research well, citing their sources so that others will read the original, and not getting in the way of their colleagues of color who are trying to sell their own books.

And, for the love of all the gods, by not assuming that White Americans "have no culture," so need to borrow someone else's to make their books interesting. I think it's worthwhile for a White writer to think hard before setting a book in an unfamiliar culture about why that book needs to be there/then. I'm not saying it shouldn't be-- books that are about all White people, all the time, are not a true representation of the whole world, and I think most writers want to write as much truth as they can. But it is worth thinking first, to figure out one's reasons for writing it.

Overall, my solution here really is: think. If someone makes an argument which brings up a strong emotion in you, think about why it makes you feel so strongly. Because you'll probably find something more interesting by looking inside you than you would by proving the other person wrong.

--R


*cultural appropriation: the use of other cultures' creations and ideas for one's own purposes, sometimes without much understanding of their meaning in the original context

**It is reasonable for people to look at my langauge here and say, "That's not religious! The entire point of the word "secular" is that it means "not religious." Which is fair. But I would argue that a major purpose of a religion (besides generally keeping social order and providing community) is to answer the big questions of life-- why are we here? What is our purpose? Why do we die and suffer? etc. And that among the secular intellectuals of my culture, while we may have a religion our parents taught us (mine was Judaism), when we try to really understand the meat-and-bones of the world around us, we use logic. "Faith" is not a satisfying answer for me about how gravity works, and why (as it would have been for my ancestors)-- I want empirically provable facts and theories to tell me these things. And I would argue that a belief in science-- that, for example, the same thing will happen twice if you exactly reproduce the circumstances-- is something which we believe on a much deeper level than the teachings of Christianity, Judaism, etc. I need to wrestle with the idea that God chose the Jews to be His people-- I just accept the idea that observation can prove or disprove hypotheses.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-05-14 05:12 pm (UTC)
zdenka: Miriam with a tambourine, text "I will sing." (Studying)
From: [personal profile] zdenka
Trying to phrase this as neutrally as I can: One thing your post doesn't address, and which I would like to understand better, is why "cultural appropriation" (what one group sees as stealing/taking invalidly and another group sees as borrowing/taking validly) is seen as a problem when no profit is being made.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-05-14 05:26 pm (UTC)
zdenka: Miriam with a tambourine, text "I will sing." (Studying)
From: [personal profile] zdenka
To clarify my comment slightly: the way you explain cultural appropriation only lists two reasons why it's a problem: 1) people of the appropriating culture profit from it and 2) it spreads misinformation. Which implies that if conditions (1) and (2) aren't present, it isn't a problem, which I don't think is what you mean -- so I invite you to explain further. Does that clarify things at all? :-)

(no subject)

Date: 2007-05-15 02:43 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rushthatspeaks.livejournal.com
The thing is, both conditions (1) and (2) are extremely hard to define to the satisfaction of all groups involved. The question of what constitutes misinformation alone is wildly complicated. Fictional example: Let's say we have a culture who every seventeen days have all members of a certain social group meet in a room in a certain area, where they perform a ritual involving dance and orally transmitted songs. A seventeenth-century British trader comes through and is permitted to observe the ritual; he describes it back home as 'a Savage Orgy'. Most people would consider it fair to define this as misinformation. In the nineteenth century, a local settler comes through and describes the ritual in outline, but without quotations or asking anyone about what is going on. In the twentieth, an anthropologist comes through and records the ritual with a cassette deck; she uses excerpts from the seventeenth and nineteenth century accounts in her paper. In the twenty-first, a different anthropologist films the whole thing and makes a documentary discussing all three previous accounts, with additional commentary. The film becomes a big hit, inspires popular music and clothing styles, and makes its way into the worldwide media melting pot... at which point representatives of the culture who perform the ritual become extremely upset, because the actual entire point of the ritual and its sacredness to them is based on the different combinations of smells produced by the incense that is burned at certain times determined by the music, and this dimension has been neither reproduced in the popular culture (because even film doesn't reproduce smell) nor discussed in the documentary(because nobody thought to ask).

How much of the previous accounts then becomes misinformation? Certainly enough to upset the people who actually have the relevant experience... but not enough for the idea of the popular conception of the ritual to change, because it's a really obscure point to cultures which don't heavily value smell. The people from the culture have to deal with a lot of people who think they have a perfect grasp of the ritual, but don't, which is annoying, and have to see the trappings of it preserved at large without the meaning; this remains upsetting. Everybody else thinks they have a grasp of the ritual, and also some really cool new clothes this fall, and can't figure out why the original group have become exasperated-- some may even become upset with the original group for being exasperated, because hey, their ideas are spreading and they're making all this money and the ritual is really cool and what's to be upset about?

End result: the original group feels obscurely ripped off, annoyed, and unwilling to allow other documentarians and anthropologists to look at other aspects of their culture. The documentarians and anthropologists try to revise their research paradigms to include smell, vowing to do better next time, in the awareness that there's always something they won't know to ask or examine. The mass media fad blows over, leaving a general impression of the culture as 'really cool but also exotic and for some reason kind of surly', and this becomes the stereotype about them.

And this sort of thing is happening all the time. Only more complicated and sometimes with a lot more animosity and sometimes the anthropologists won't admit they got anything wrong and try to tell the people how to practice their own culture, and the kids who have some descent from the culture decide to reclaim the fashion as a native pride movement, and and and. And everyone gets more and more pissed off, factionalized, uncommunicative, and convinced that nobody else understands.

And that's without bringing the issue of money into it at all. When you bring money into it, you can actually wind up with wars.

continued due to comment character limit

Date: 2007-05-15 02:53 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rushthatspeaks.livejournal.com
And all of this with very, very little in the way of factual misinformation in the newer accounts-- the cassette version is verbatim! how can that be misrepresentation? and yet-- and the 'full' facts available eventually to people who care enough to look.

It's really not possible for there not to be a misinformation factor. The question is whether everyone who spreads information about one culture into another can handle things respectfully, thoroughly and carefully enough to make sure that the misinformation that will inevitably be promulgated is not so thoroughly divorced from reality for the group misrepresented to resort to heavy weaponry.

The cultural appropriation debate is about how you do that. Generally, asking the group in question how they would like to be represented is the starting point, and then you run into things such as the knowledge-transmission-pattern differences that Ruth is pondering.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-05-15 02:47 pm (UTC)
navrins: (Default)
From: [personal profile] navrins
...at which point representatives of the culture who perform the ritual become extremely upset...

This is the point that I don't get.

I understand that all of the anthropologists have missed the point. I understand that all the people who saw the film missed the point. I understand the representatives of the culture that performs the ritual shaking their heads, sighing, and saying something we might translate as, "silly foreigners."

But what I don't understand is why they get upset by this. I don't understand how any of the situation you've described can be interpreted as any sort of harm to the culture or to the ritual. (If anything, I can see the anthropologist getting a little miffed. "If the smell is the whole point of the ritual, how come you never mentioned it when I was asking about the sigificance of the ritual?")

Can you explain that?

(no subject)

Date: 2007-05-14 05:54 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thespooniest.livejournal.com
I just wanted to point out something here. You mention this:

And, for the love of all the gods, by not assuming that White Americans "have no culture," so need to borrow someone else's to make their books interesting.

The thing is, for many Americans, particularly White Americans but for all Americans to varying degrees, this isn't just an assumption: it's what we're taught. It's the flip side of the whole "melting pot" thing; there's an idea that everything about American culture (or, at the very least, everything worthwhile) is lifted directly from some other place and/or time. Nothing originates here; cultural appropriation is our culture. If cultures were creatures, American culture would be a parasite, forced to feed off of others just to sustain its own existence.

When you look at it this way, it's easy to see why Americans -and again, particularly White Americans- don't understand the problem of appropriation. To their minds, it's what we do, it's how we function culturally. Take it away, and there's quite literally nothing left. Whether or not it's right, is it really fair to blame someone in such a situation, or someone who has been taught from childhood to believe that they are in this situation?

Some of this is almost certainly a matter of misinterpretation. I very much doubt that the people who designed your average primary-education social studies program actually intended to say that "American culture" doesn't exist. But it's such a common misinterpretation that it begs the question: is there something wrong with the way that the message is being sent? If we decide that the problem's not there, then is something wrong with the message itself?

Our system tries to teach our children to recognize and appreciate other cultures. In order to appropriate someone else's culture you have to be able to recognize it on some level, so clearly our system is at least partly successful. But if our children are so good at appreciating other cultures, why aren't they appreciating, or indeed even recognizing, their own?

(no subject)

Date: 2007-05-14 06:41 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] foleyartist1.livejournal.com
I think a related issue is that on a fundamental level, Americans have a problem not with having no culture, but with having too MANY cultures. The cultures which exist in the United States have some different features than cultures which exist outside it; some of this is because of centuries of appropriation (because, as you say, appropriation is part of our culture) and some is because Americans have organically grown aspects of their culture. As you say, "American culture" does exist; while the ideas, actions, and consequences of the Founding Fathers were influenced by other cultures, they are part of a uniquely American culture--and that's just one piece.

The problem we run into is, we can talk about the founders, American history, and American culture, but because there are so many groups involved due to our melting pot nature and sheer size, someone is going to raise their hand and say, "That may be your American culture, but it's not my American culture." A Native American who's lived on the reservation her whole life and a middle-class White American like me are probably going to have different answers to the question "What are the features of 'American history' and 'American culture'?", including the degree to which appropriation is a feature and the WAY in which appropriation is a feature.

I think perhaps the messages we send when we try to teach people about American culture wind up suffering one of two unfortunate fates: we either wind up saying that the culture of the dominant class is the only culture (i.e. the culture of white men with money is the "real American culture") and everything else is a "sub-culture," or we bend over so far backwards trying to avoid saying so that we wind up saying that the non-moneyed cultures are the "real" cultures and the white people with money are outside predators who mindlessly consume them because they have nothing of their own.

The truth is probably something more like, "American culture" is what has happened and continues to happen when all of these disparate elements collide under our unique governmental framework. All of the elements are part of it, and the fact of the ongoing negotiations between them are part of it, and resulting tensions over cultural ownership are part of it too. Some responses and customs seem much more "American" than others, and I don't think most people would argue if I said that Chinese Americans or Irish Americans etc. have different cultural features than Chinese people or Irish people etc. after generations have passed.

I think the whole world is struggling with this problem of cultural ownership now because of globalization. Perhaps one of the most truly American things about Americans is that we've got a long head-start on all of the dialog about it. Every nation has other "sub-cultures" living within it both separate and integrated, but they're generally so much smaller and fewer that the dominant culture of that country can easily suppress them. For example, take Japan: the Korean population in Japan for many years would look at the dominant paradigm of "Japanese culture" and say "That's not our Japanese culture." It's also true that mainstream Japanese culture appropriated things from its Korean population without consciously acknowledging so as more second- and third-generation Koreans mixed with the population. But it's so easy for mainstream Japanese culture to seem fairly "pure and simple" compared to American culture because the dominant cultural powers can suppress cultural-identity problems like these or dismiss them as an insignificant "sub-culture" that's only relevant to a small portion of the population. Yes, Japan is dealing with these problems now. But just like the dominant White culture of America past, it took them a while to really start wrestling with it, and they're not very far along yet. Whereas Americans are so ahead of everyone else that many of us are already wondering whether there even is such a thing as our culture. Nobody else asks that on this level. It's so quintessentially American.

Anyway, this isn't very well thought-out because I don't really have the time to devote my brain to it right now, but that's my knee-jerk thoughts about it in the midst of my crazy life....

(no subject)

Date: 2007-05-14 07:00 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nucl3arsnke.livejournal.com
Hmmm...not really a well-thought ought comment, but maybe for the same reasons we can't recognize our own accent unless we specifically learn to? We learn to recognize other cultures based on what is different in that culture, but we don't recognize our own culture because we see it as "normal," rather than "our own culture."

I'm also thinking because many of our experiences with people from other cultures are people who participate in both their culture and in American culture, so we continue to see "culture" as something they have but we don't. Because the American culture that we share with them is "normal." and everyone seems to have it, and then their other, non-American culture is something extra. Something they have that we don't.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-05-14 07:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] nucl3arsnke.livejournal.com
I mean my comment isn't terribly well thought-out. It's just initial impressions.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-05-14 06:16 pm (UTC)
ext_6167: (magical feeling)
From: [identity profile] delux-vivens.livejournal.com
I have to say I find it interesting, given just how much people of color, especially Native American people in the US, have had to say about cultural appropriation and how it insults and affects them so repeatedly and so clearly, that the concept continues to be such a source of astonishment...

for example.

Date: 2007-05-14 06:19 pm (UTC)
ext_6167: (michael slave name)
From: [identity profile] delux-vivens.livejournal.com
As Cree historian Winona Wheeler (Stevenson) notes, Western-based academics place a high value on procuring "knowledge" or the "truth" as a goal in and of itself. By contrast, she argues, within Native communities, possession of knowledge does not confer the right to communicate that knowledge to outsiders:

One of the major tenets of Western erudition is the belief that all knowledge is knowable. In the Cree world all knowledge is not knowable because knowledge is property in the sense that it is owned and can only be transmitted by the legitimate owner. . . . You can't just go and take it, or even go and ask for it. Access to knowledge requires long-term commitment, apprenticeship, and payment. As a student of oral history, in the traditional sense, there is so much I have heard and learned yet so little I can speak or write about, because I have not earned the right to do so. I cannot tell anyone or write about most things because it has not been given to me. If I did it would be theft. So I'll probably be an Old Lady before I am allowed to pass it on. By then, I'll have learned all those rules of transmission and will probably feel impelled to keep it in the oral tradition and not write it down.

Re: for example.

Date: 2007-05-14 11:11 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] orawnzva.livejournal.com
I think this is a different case — here, there is a clear relationship between the keeper of the knowledge and the one they are teaching, and the restrictions on further transmission of the knowledge are inherent in that relationship. This notion is captured quite well (albeit without the same depth of cultural meaning) in the Western ideas of contract and trade secret law. They're not utterly foreign to us.

What is foreign to the Western mind is, I think, the idea that public knowledge — knowledge that is available to me without my having any particular relationship to its source — could be restricted in this way. A secret is a secret, but if something is in a book that I checked out of the library, it's mine to quote, to interpret, and otherwise to integrate into my own identity. It's right and proper that I should credit the source, of course.

I would go further and say that it's inevitable that intellectually curious people will integrate cultural material which they find meaningful into their identity. My half-baked, partial idea of Japanese culture that I got from watching anime is part of me — I think a lot of people get nervous at the idea that parts of themselves shouldn't be expressed depending on their external source.

Re: for example.

Date: 2007-05-14 11:22 pm (UTC)
ext_6167: (Default)
From: [identity profile] delux-vivens.livejournal.com
and how does knowledge get to be public, exactly?

Re: for example.

Date: 2007-05-15 03:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] orawnzva.livejournal.com
The ideal, most right case of knowledge becoming public would involve a member of the culture from which the knowledge comes, who has, within the context of that culture, legitimate access to that knowledge, makes it available in a way which doesn't depend on any particular cultural relationship to its source — for example, they write a book on it which I check out of my local library.

Of course, if the author is an outsider who should have known better — who had their fingers crossed when they took the oath of secrecy, for example, not realizing that, in the source culture, the correct oath-negating gesture would have been to wiggle their left big toe rather than to cross their fingers — then that's much less okay.

We should also not negate our own culture — just because some value of ours (freedom of knowledge) isn't universally shared doesn't mean wh shouldn't act on it! It just means we need to be wary of cases where it may come into tension with the values of other cultures, not be too surprised, and respond accordingly in a gracious manner.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-05-14 07:06 pm (UTC)
sovay: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sovay
is that it's not true. Not just that I could eventually figure everything out, but that I don't believe anything should be off-limits. Because there are things that Americans don't believe we should know-- that are "too much information." A whole lot of biological functions, social interactions, etc-- we've decided that these are not useful in our quest to find things out, and we try not to learn them. They may or may not actually be useful, but we believe that they aren't, on a level so deep it feels like instinct.

I am not sure that the concept of TMI has so much to do with grand theories of everything or the pertinence of said information thereto as it does with levels of personal comfort, notions of social appropriateness, or plain self-interest (and of course all of these factors can intersect: you are being very rude and making me uncomfortable by telling me that I have misappropriated a facet of your culture, so please stop now). Or what examples are you thinking of?

(no subject)

Date: 2007-05-15 02:18 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] rushthatspeaks.livejournal.com
The example I gave Ruth was our parents' sex lives. When casting a nativity in Renaissance Europe, or in feudal China, one wanted to tell the astrologer as much about the position of one's own conception as possible; generations upon generations of families have lived in very, very small houses with no privacy as we now see it-- and the reaction of most of the people I know to detailed speculation about their parents' sexualities is screaming/running/hiding/denial/'I did NOT need to know that!'. Which means that, should one see any validity in some forms of astrology, most of the people I know are actively blocking out knowledge that could, by formulating the influence of the celestial bodies, seriously influence their lives and their choices.

Americans tend not to want to think on a really detailed level about what we do with our dead and where various funeral rites come from. Expert levels of knowledge about insects, some kinds of disease, sewage, poisons, and a few other things can be very socially limiting, even though they can also be very useful.

TMI is entirely relative, and the things that are blocked by our taboos do not enter common discourse as effectively as the things which aren't.
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